Johnny writes:
"Recently a family member that had a active life as a baptist. Attended a Christian (baptist ) school her entire life til she graduated. (With excellent grades ) .. Has gone to a christian university in Washington State... Now she"s failed all her courses and obsessed with the book of Mormon. Constantly reading it. All her friends are Mormon. All this happened in one year. When she was home for Christmas last year. She wouldn't even go to same church she'd attended all her life.. Only a Mormon church she'll attend now.,
The question I have is: Do the Mormons go as far as checking peoples email? I've tried to contact her via Email and I very rarely get a reply.. And the replies I do get... Seem like some generic answer for concerned family members.
It's not the type of things she'd say..
Would this be there attempt at keeping her un active in other religions?? "
There are a few factors at play here, Johnny and I'll do my best to shed a little light on them for you. The church doesn't monitor or check her emails, or make her write her generic answers. But only because they don't have to. the changes you are seeing in her, the withdrawal, the isolation, are functions of the church but in a far subtler and more insidious way than if they gave her a script to send to her family and friends.
The line she is being fed is this: "Be in the world, but not of the world." on the inside of the church that means to live so that you keep yourself "clean and unspotted". In practice it means picking everything that enters your life, from food and drink and clothes to music and friends very carefully and in accordance with the teachings of the church. It sounds to me like she has been baptized, which would explain why she will only attend a mormon church now. And what she has been taught there is that while all churches have some good in them, the LDS church is the only "true and living" church. The church doesn't need to keep her from being active in other religions, because from the inside there is only "mormon" and "should be mormon".
So, no. they do not check her e-mail. And they don't stop her from responding or replying, nor do they give her a script that she must use. But you are seeing the impact of the teachings above. She can't go to her church where she was raised because, now, to her, it is lesser. It isn't "the fullness of the gospel", and in truth the two faiths are very different. The generic responses are likely because in learning a whole new set of beliefs, including a sort of language of it's own, with it's own catch phrases. it is a very very isolating church, but from the inside it doesn't seem isolating. Because you are kept busy busy busy and not just on sundays. But even with all the activity and the socialization within the church, there is no closeness. And there is less closeness with those outside the church, because they just don't understand, and how can they? Those poor souls do not have "the fullness of the gospel . . . . yet."
I can't tell you how to fix it. I can tell you she won't see it. not even if you confront her with it.
Thank you Johnny for asking and I hope I helped a little.
* * *
If you have a question about mormons, or mormonism, please feel free to send it my way, askanexmormon@gmail.com
Sunday, May 22, 2011
Saturday, May 21, 2011
FAQ #3 What's this I hear about the mormon Bible? --with Guest Ex-mormon Sapper Daddy!
Sapper Daddy--Father, ex-mormon, historian and military man has offered to lend his expertise to the Ask an Ex Mormon efforts! With a MA in History and a focus in LDS Church history, he will bring in the facts! be sure to make a lot of comments and if you have questions for him feel free to send them to askanexmormon@gmail.com and pick his brains! Thanks for this SD!
The Book of Mormon traces the descendants of the first colonists from the Middle East, the family of a prophet named Lehi. His posterity split into two groups, the Nephites-followers of his son Nephite and the Lamanites-who followed his other son Laman. The Nephites were faithful people who lived Jewish customs and lived the Law of Moses. The Lamanites, according to the Book of Mormon were less faithful and were cursed by god with a "skin of blackness" and became the ancestors of the American Indians (which explains why Native Americans are not white). The account describes many wars and finally climaxes with a visit of the resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion in Jerusalem. After Jesus' visit, the society eventually fought wars that culminated in the destruction of the Nephite civilization.
Later Mormon leaders have repeatedly stressed that the truth of Joseph Smith rests solely on the veracity of the Book of Mormon. As "the most true book ever published," the Book of Mormon's claims must be fully true and should easily be verified by archaeological evidence, right? Well, unfortunately, wrong. The dirty secret that Mormons won't ever fully admit is that no good evidence supporting claims as made in the Book of Mormon have been found to date. Of course, they rationalize this by emphasizing the to date part of this. BYU has a large archeological department with a big budget dedicated to proving that Book of Mormon claims are true. So far, nothing that's solid evidence exists, otherwise the Mormons would have shouted it from the rooftops.
One of the biggest problems with the Book of Mormon is geography. Where did this all happen? Unlike the Bible where the places can be pinpointed, Very few of these exist for the Book of Mormon. Aside from places described in the first part of the book, before the colonists got to the Americas. Jerusalem, we can pinpoint, as well as the Arabian Peninsula; however, the route as described to their departure point (which some Mormon archaeologists claim to have found, but other than a spot that sort of looks as described there is no other concrete evidence to support his claim), the record goes silent. The Book of Mormon does not describe in any detail that we can match to the present day lay of the land. Sure cities are described, a narrow neck of land, etc, but where exactly are these places? Are they in Mesoamerica, or does the book encompass the entire North and South American continents? Were the Nephites the Maya, and if so, why does the height of their civilization not correspond to the timeline of the Book of Mormon? Also, what happened to the iron implements like swords, horses, pigs, Reformed Egyptian writing, and many other issues.
Also, as exposed on South Park, what happened to the 116 pages of text that Martin Harris lost? Why could they not have just been retranslated? Oh that's right, the rocks in Joseph Smith's hat didn't come up with the same translation, but with a similar story as well as an explanation that God knew what was going to happen.
This does not even scratch the surface of the issues with the text itself, but just suffice it to say that if the translation was perfect, how come we are now on the 10th edition to the text? The modern tenth edition is radically different than Joseph Smith's first edition. Why?
Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation that includes all present evidence is usually the correct one. So which is simpler, that God did not see fit to leave enough evidence to let us identify without doubt where this happened and that he hid archaeological evidence that would prove conclusive, or that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up? My next post will describe how this probably happened, as near as we can piece together."
"The Book of Mormon purports to be a translation by Joseph Smith, Mormonism's founder, of ancient engraved plates made of gold that he found buried in a hill in upstate New York. By his account, he was directed to these plates by an angel named Moroni, one of the compilers of the record when he was a mortal. By his account (something which changed in dramatic details over the years) he proceeded to translate these plates into English. The plates told a story of the inhabitants of the Americas, transplants from Jerusalem just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.Smith would dictate his translation to various scribes, first Martin Harris, a man Smith befriended in the hopes of securing financial backing to have his translation work published. After an incident where Harris lost the first 116 pages of the translation, Smith replaced him with Oliver Cowdery. Eventually, Smith completed the translation and published the book.
The Book of Mormon traces the descendants of the first colonists from the Middle East, the family of a prophet named Lehi. His posterity split into two groups, the Nephites-followers of his son Nephite and the Lamanites-who followed his other son Laman. The Nephites were faithful people who lived Jewish customs and lived the Law of Moses. The Lamanites, according to the Book of Mormon were less faithful and were cursed by god with a "skin of blackness" and became the ancestors of the American Indians (which explains why Native Americans are not white). The account describes many wars and finally climaxes with a visit of the resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion in Jerusalem. After Jesus' visit, the society eventually fought wars that culminated in the destruction of the Nephite civilization.
Later Mormon leaders have repeatedly stressed that the truth of Joseph Smith rests solely on the veracity of the Book of Mormon. As "the most true book ever published," the Book of Mormon's claims must be fully true and should easily be verified by archaeological evidence, right? Well, unfortunately, wrong. The dirty secret that Mormons won't ever fully admit is that no good evidence supporting claims as made in the Book of Mormon have been found to date. Of course, they rationalize this by emphasizing the to date part of this. BYU has a large archeological department with a big budget dedicated to proving that Book of Mormon claims are true. So far, nothing that's solid evidence exists, otherwise the Mormons would have shouted it from the rooftops.
One of the biggest problems with the Book of Mormon is geography. Where did this all happen? Unlike the Bible where the places can be pinpointed, Very few of these exist for the Book of Mormon. Aside from places described in the first part of the book, before the colonists got to the Americas. Jerusalem, we can pinpoint, as well as the Arabian Peninsula; however, the route as described to their departure point (which some Mormon archaeologists claim to have found, but other than a spot that sort of looks as described there is no other concrete evidence to support his claim), the record goes silent. The Book of Mormon does not describe in any detail that we can match to the present day lay of the land. Sure cities are described, a narrow neck of land, etc, but where exactly are these places? Are they in Mesoamerica, or does the book encompass the entire North and South American continents? Were the Nephites the Maya, and if so, why does the height of their civilization not correspond to the timeline of the Book of Mormon? Also, what happened to the iron implements like swords, horses, pigs, Reformed Egyptian writing, and many other issues.
Also, as exposed on South Park, what happened to the 116 pages of text that Martin Harris lost? Why could they not have just been retranslated? Oh that's right, the rocks in Joseph Smith's hat didn't come up with the same translation, but with a similar story as well as an explanation that God knew what was going to happen.
This does not even scratch the surface of the issues with the text itself, but just suffice it to say that if the translation was perfect, how come we are now on the 10th edition to the text? The modern tenth edition is radically different than Joseph Smith's first edition. Why?
Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation that includes all present evidence is usually the correct one. So which is simpler, that God did not see fit to leave enough evidence to let us identify without doubt where this happened and that he hid archaeological evidence that would prove conclusive, or that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up? My next post will describe how this probably happened, as near as we can piece together."
A side note from Molly: I was always taught to remind people that mormons also used the King James Version of the Bible, and they do. But the emphasis is very heavily on the Book of Mormon. It is considered to be more prefect within the church and though it is never said that the Bible is the lesser work, it is sort of implied.
Friday, May 20, 2011
FAQ #2 So . . . Are they? or aren't they? Christian, that is.
YES! and also NO!
This is a really common question and understandable. But hard to answer.
Mormons think they are Christian. But they are also under the impression that the only thing required to be Christian is a belief in Christ. So if you ask a Mormon they will say "Oh Yes!" and point out that Christ is even in the name of the church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But I have learned there is more to Christianity than that belief in Christ, and part of that is a cohesion with other Christians. And in that sense, no, mormons are not Christian. They are, in fact, actively discouraged from being a part of or learning about mainstream Christian religions. I didn't realize till I had been out for a while how ingrained that conditioning is in the Church. They do not even share religious music with other Christian faiths. Even the childrens songs are unique to the LDS church, and the children are not taught the same songs as protestants or Catholics or any other brand of Christianity.
Even now, having found my own beliefs are atheistic, I have a hard time with protestant hymns. my LDS conditioning kicks in and I have to squash it.
This is an odd dualism I have discovered since leaving. The way things look when you are on the inside of the church is very different from the way they look from the outside. and the Church often open teaches and claims one thing, while doing just the opposite.
One friend, a Theist in a faith-based religion was telling me how mormons are not Christians--after I had left-- and I agreed and said in fairness, many Christians weren't really Christians either. He agreed there. First time we had agreed on anything religious in twenty years!
Do you have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
This is a really common question and understandable. But hard to answer.
Mormons think they are Christian. But they are also under the impression that the only thing required to be Christian is a belief in Christ. So if you ask a Mormon they will say "Oh Yes!" and point out that Christ is even in the name of the church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But I have learned there is more to Christianity than that belief in Christ, and part of that is a cohesion with other Christians. And in that sense, no, mormons are not Christian. They are, in fact, actively discouraged from being a part of or learning about mainstream Christian religions. I didn't realize till I had been out for a while how ingrained that conditioning is in the Church. They do not even share religious music with other Christian faiths. Even the childrens songs are unique to the LDS church, and the children are not taught the same songs as protestants or Catholics or any other brand of Christianity.
Even now, having found my own beliefs are atheistic, I have a hard time with protestant hymns. my LDS conditioning kicks in and I have to squash it.
This is an odd dualism I have discovered since leaving. The way things look when you are on the inside of the church is very different from the way they look from the outside. and the Church often open teaches and claims one thing, while doing just the opposite.
One friend, a Theist in a faith-based religion was telling me how mormons are not Christians--after I had left-- and I agreed and said in fairness, many Christians weren't really Christians either. He agreed there. First time we had agreed on anything religious in twenty years!
Do you have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
FAQ #1 Yep. The one about multiple wives.
Miss Molly? Don't mormons have more than one wife? What number wife are you?
I can only speak for the mainstream LDS church. But like catholicism, there are "protestant"-esque off shoots of the mormon church and if or how they practice polygamy I can't say. The Big Love folks would not be considered mainstream LDS.
Today in mainstream mormons, polygamy is not in practice, though it was at the inception of the church. and while not in practice is still considered a righteous and good practice and something that will exist in the eternities.
One thing you should know about the LDS church is there is a disparity between what is said and how things actually are. Within the church is a common understanding that there will be plural marriage in the afterlife, but most mormons are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of actually practicing it. It's one thing to know it will happen in the very distant eternity, and another entirely to think of sharing your husband in a very real and physical sense. Men and women alike, most don't like the idea and often say things like 'well, I wouldn't be righteous enough to have more than one wife any way', or 'Oh I'm glad I don't live in that time.'
Within the church it is claimed that the reason for polygamy is that there are more righteous women than men, and since marriage is required to reach the highest levels in heaven, men have to take more than one wife to let all those good women in! (Don't ask me for sense, I can only offer what is taught. I'm merely a humble ex-mormon, not a miracle worker.) It is also claimed that the reason for the practice in the first place was all the widows and orphans left behind when the early mormon pioneers migrated across the US to Utah. Someone had to take care of all them women!
Myself, I was just one of one.
Interestingly though--men can have more than one temple marriage if the first wife has died. He can marry again in the temple, and the first wife would also still be sealed to him and tada! Polygamy!
Have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
I can only speak for the mainstream LDS church. But like catholicism, there are "protestant"-esque off shoots of the mormon church and if or how they practice polygamy I can't say. The Big Love folks would not be considered mainstream LDS.
Today in mainstream mormons, polygamy is not in practice, though it was at the inception of the church. and while not in practice is still considered a righteous and good practice and something that will exist in the eternities.
One thing you should know about the LDS church is there is a disparity between what is said and how things actually are. Within the church is a common understanding that there will be plural marriage in the afterlife, but most mormons are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of actually practicing it. It's one thing to know it will happen in the very distant eternity, and another entirely to think of sharing your husband in a very real and physical sense. Men and women alike, most don't like the idea and often say things like 'well, I wouldn't be righteous enough to have more than one wife any way', or 'Oh I'm glad I don't live in that time.'
Within the church it is claimed that the reason for polygamy is that there are more righteous women than men, and since marriage is required to reach the highest levels in heaven, men have to take more than one wife to let all those good women in! (Don't ask me for sense, I can only offer what is taught. I'm merely a humble ex-mormon, not a miracle worker.) It is also claimed that the reason for the practice in the first place was all the widows and orphans left behind when the early mormon pioneers migrated across the US to Utah. Someone had to take care of all them women!
Myself, I was just one of one.
Interestingly though--men can have more than one temple marriage if the first wife has died. He can marry again in the temple, and the first wife would also still be sealed to him and tada! Polygamy!
Have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Thursday, May 19, 2011
Who, What, How, Why.
Who can ask you questions Miss Molly? Only non-mormons? What if I went to a service once? Can I sill ask?
Anyone. In or out of the church. That's right. Sometimes even Mormon's might have questions about their own religion.
What can I ask you Miss Molly? Are there any subjects off limits?
Anything. I may or may not answer. I'm not really here to debate so much as share. Have a question about what the church teaches? Have a mormon neighbor you can't quite understand? Hear a rumor you want to understand or explore? What is the deal with the magic undies? Ask. It cant hurt!
How do I ask my very important question Miss Molly?
Well I'm glad you asked! drop me an email at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Why are you opening yourself to us like this Miss Molly? Are you trying to convert us? or worse! deconvert us?
No, not looking to convert or deconvert. I just have a few decades of experience on the inside and I know how the way things look from the inside is a lot different then the way they look on the outside. And not everyone who is curious about the inside has an ex-mormon of their own to ask about these things. Plus, I'm just giving that way.
Anyone. In or out of the church. That's right. Sometimes even Mormon's might have questions about their own religion.
What can I ask you Miss Molly? Are there any subjects off limits?
Anything. I may or may not answer. I'm not really here to debate so much as share. Have a question about what the church teaches? Have a mormon neighbor you can't quite understand? Hear a rumor you want to understand or explore? What is the deal with the magic undies? Ask. It cant hurt!
How do I ask my very important question Miss Molly?
Well I'm glad you asked! drop me an email at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Why are you opening yourself to us like this Miss Molly? Are you trying to convert us? or worse! deconvert us?
No, not looking to convert or deconvert. I just have a few decades of experience on the inside and I know how the way things look from the inside is a lot different then the way they look on the outside. And not everyone who is curious about the inside has an ex-mormon of their own to ask about these things. Plus, I'm just giving that way.
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