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Tuesday, May 31, 2011
Monday, May 30, 2011
Do Mormons think Jesus and Satan are Brothers?
Someauthor asks:
My understanding (un-researched) is that Mormonism maintains Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Can you give any information on this perspective.
As a second question, do you think that early level Mormon teachings (for men) are vastly different from higher-level teachings?
The pretenses of my own membership in "Secret Societies" (be they Eastern Star, Masonry, DeMolay or w/e) lead me to believe that noob training is very far from high level teaching. I am curious about your experiences regarding that perspective. Many thanks for your time and effort.
The first answer is easy. Yes. Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Not only that, they are our brothers too, since we are all spirit children of God. The story goes that in the pre-exisitance we all lived with god and there was no progression. In order for there to be progression we would need to come to earth to get bodies. Physical bodies are required for eternal exhaltation.
Jesus and Lucifer both put themselves forward for the job of savior (the plan . . . apple, mortality, death . . . demanded a savior who could conquor death). But Jesus wanted the people to have agency, the freedom to make choices, good and bad. Lucifer wanted people to not have that choice, that way no one would be lost.
There was a great war . . . which I have always been told was fought with words, not swords, (and some how in my head it always looked like a session of the Brittish Parliment . . . "will the right honorable git in favor of free agency cede the floor now?" )
You and I both fought in the war and we can know what side we were on because we are here on earth, in physical bodies. Satan and his followers, 1/3 of the hosts of heaven, were cast to earth bodiless, and the rest of us who were on Jesus side, started the process of birth and death that would bring us all back to god, depending on our choices in this life.
Here are a few quotes from Hinkley and Wirthlin on the war in heaven.
Now part two is harder for me . . . because alas I am a woman and not privy to all the things that go on in the mens groups. There is a great deal of gender segregation in the church. I will say, the stuff you are taught in primary and in the missionary discussions is not as deep and involved as the things taught in the adult classes. I'm going to pass this question on to one of my friends who might be better equipped to answer.
If you have a question for me please send it to askanexmormon@gmail.com
Sunday, May 29, 2011
"The Spirit of God, like a fire is burning . . ."
Liam asks:
Have you experienced the infamous "Burning in the Bosom?"
For those who may not know, this is the catch phrase for feeling the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. The names are interchangeable. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the godhead and he has no physical body (god and Jesus do.) He can be many places at once and isn't bound by laws of physics. It is his job to testify of truth to your soul. He also warns of danger. Everyone can access the Holy Ghost--you know the Jiminy Cricket conscience we are all familiar with? That's the holy ghost. Or so the LDS church claims. When a person is baptised, they are them confirmed members of the church and given the gift of the holy ghost, so that they will always have that "still small voice" in the back of their heads telling them what is right and what is wrong and what is good and what is bad.
For most this happens at the age of eight, and for me, it was very easy to visualize that conscience as a literal being whispering in my ear. Of course I also thought if i spun around in circles enough times I actually -would- turn into Wonder Woman. 8 year old brains are very impressionable.
Now the main job of the holy spirit is to testify of truth, and this comes as a burning in the bosom. and Yes, I have felt it. So have you. It's a warm fuzzy, appropriated by the church doctrine, just like the concept of the conscience was, and accredited to the Spirit.
I have felt that in spiritual moments, when I felt a great connection to the universe, the divine, the people around me. Girls camp was practically a Warm Fuzzy high! There was just so much love and estrogen! and Youth Conference too. 300 young people all pressed together and feeling such community and love. Yes. I felt the burning in my bosom. and I did attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
But I also felt it when I graduated College. and there have been a handful of kisses that left me walking on air! And the day I adopted my baby. and the day I bought my house. And I felt it a few weeks ago as I knelt outside on a sunday weeding my garden and wearing a sleeveless shirt and drinking coffee. I've felt it when reading John Donne's poetry. And when listening to good Jazz music. I have felt it when marveling at historical sites and touching things that people built 3000 years ago.
That the church appropriates and exploits this warm fuzzy phenomenon is really pure advertising.
I was asked why I left the church if I felt this . . .
because an emotional response like that is not enough to hold up next to facts, and reality.
It simply isn't. No more than the warm flush of happiness after a first kiss means it's love and it will last forever.
Faith is not Knowlege and it turns out for me, faith simply wasnt enough.
Do you have a question? Send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Have you experienced the infamous "Burning in the Bosom?"
For those who may not know, this is the catch phrase for feeling the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. The names are interchangeable. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the godhead and he has no physical body (god and Jesus do.) He can be many places at once and isn't bound by laws of physics. It is his job to testify of truth to your soul. He also warns of danger. Everyone can access the Holy Ghost--you know the Jiminy Cricket conscience we are all familiar with? That's the holy ghost. Or so the LDS church claims. When a person is baptised, they are them confirmed members of the church and given the gift of the holy ghost, so that they will always have that "still small voice" in the back of their heads telling them what is right and what is wrong and what is good and what is bad.
For most this happens at the age of eight, and for me, it was very easy to visualize that conscience as a literal being whispering in my ear. Of course I also thought if i spun around in circles enough times I actually -would- turn into Wonder Woman. 8 year old brains are very impressionable.
Now the main job of the holy spirit is to testify of truth, and this comes as a burning in the bosom. and Yes, I have felt it. So have you. It's a warm fuzzy, appropriated by the church doctrine, just like the concept of the conscience was, and accredited to the Spirit.
I have felt that in spiritual moments, when I felt a great connection to the universe, the divine, the people around me. Girls camp was practically a Warm Fuzzy high! There was just so much love and estrogen! and Youth Conference too. 300 young people all pressed together and feeling such community and love. Yes. I felt the burning in my bosom. and I did attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
But I also felt it when I graduated College. and there have been a handful of kisses that left me walking on air! And the day I adopted my baby. and the day I bought my house. And I felt it a few weeks ago as I knelt outside on a sunday weeding my garden and wearing a sleeveless shirt and drinking coffee. I've felt it when reading John Donne's poetry. And when listening to good Jazz music. I have felt it when marveling at historical sites and touching things that people built 3000 years ago.
That the church appropriates and exploits this warm fuzzy phenomenon is really pure advertising.
I was asked why I left the church if I felt this . . .
because an emotional response like that is not enough to hold up next to facts, and reality.
It simply isn't. No more than the warm flush of happiness after a first kiss means it's love and it will last forever.
Faith is not Knowlege and it turns out for me, faith simply wasnt enough.
Do you have a question? Send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Saturday, May 28, 2011
FAQ #6 Do Mormons. . . .
Have horns?
No. Though I did used to tell non Mormons that mine had been filed down.
Dance?
Yes. But only to uplifting music with no bad language and positive messages
Celebrate birthdays?
Yes. In the fairly traditional way.
Celebrate christmas?
Yes. And some welcome Santa as part of their celebration, some don't. Though I think he is down played in most Mormon homes.
Listen to music?
Yes. But music is to be carefully chosen to only bring good into your world. If you wouldn't want to listen to it with jesus then you shouldn't listen to it.
Self-flagellate?
No, alas.
Later I'll talk about tithes and the whole no smoking, no drinking thing. In the mean time if you have a question about Mormons send it my way! Aakanexmormon@gmail.com
No. Though I did used to tell non Mormons that mine had been filed down.
Dance?
Yes. But only to uplifting music with no bad language and positive messages
Celebrate birthdays?
Yes. In the fairly traditional way.
Celebrate christmas?
Yes. And some welcome Santa as part of their celebration, some don't. Though I think he is down played in most Mormon homes.
Listen to music?
Yes. But music is to be carefully chosen to only bring good into your world. If you wouldn't want to listen to it with jesus then you shouldn't listen to it.
Self-flagellate?
No, alas.
Later I'll talk about tithes and the whole no smoking, no drinking thing. In the mean time if you have a question about Mormons send it my way! Aakanexmormon@gmail.com
Thursday, May 26, 2011
FAQ #5 You wear what? The magic undies.
Garments. Temple Garments specifically.
Sexy, eh?
Ok, so for those of you looking at that and saying wtf, there is an explanation! (I can't promise the explanation won't also make you go "wtf?") Do you remember Adam and Eve? Garden, Apple, Snake? Well, in that story, after they ate the apple and became aware of their nakedness, they made aprons of fig leaves, and then after hiding from god, when he found them, he told them to make coats of animal skins. The derivative of those coats of skins are the delightful polyester and poly-cotton confections you see before you.
When an adult goes through the temple for the first time, they are given garments to wear, as a representation of the clothing given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. It is meant to be protective, and worn always next to the skin, a constant reminder of god in their lives.
First I'll talk about the rules, and then the protection.
You wear these garments day and night. in all your activities except things where they would be seen and mocked, like a swimming pool, or a doctors office. They are to be worn in bed. You may remove them for sex, but should put them back on as soon as possible. They are not to be rolled up at the knees to be shorter, not are the sleeves to be rolled up. Clothing should be modest enough to cover the garments up completely. They are to be worn against the skin . . . that's right ladies, bras go over these babies! It's not all bad though, you do save a lot not shopping at Victoria's secret . . . because would you really put one of those sexy numbers over that? If you doubt my understanding of this, here is the official church guidelines on the wearing and care of the garments.
The protections is a little fuzzier. There are some mormons who will swear up and down that the garments give an actual physical protection from physical harm. And you do find those sort of apocryphal "a friend of a friend . . ." type tales about protection from fire, even bullets. But on the whole mormons are taught that the protection is spiritual, not physical. They help you stay modest and chaste. They remind you of god all the time, and that will help you make better choices. As for physical protection . . . well . . . they do prevent chafing.
Here is a 1997 conference talk on the garments, fully charged with all of it's holy glory and power.
Curious about something? Have a question for me, or something to add? stick it in the comments or send your questions to askanexmormon@gmail.com
Sexy, eh?
Ok, so for those of you looking at that and saying wtf, there is an explanation! (I can't promise the explanation won't also make you go "wtf?") Do you remember Adam and Eve? Garden, Apple, Snake? Well, in that story, after they ate the apple and became aware of their nakedness, they made aprons of fig leaves, and then after hiding from god, when he found them, he told them to make coats of animal skins. The derivative of those coats of skins are the delightful polyester and poly-cotton confections you see before you.
When an adult goes through the temple for the first time, they are given garments to wear, as a representation of the clothing given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. It is meant to be protective, and worn always next to the skin, a constant reminder of god in their lives.
First I'll talk about the rules, and then the protection.
You wear these garments day and night. in all your activities except things where they would be seen and mocked, like a swimming pool, or a doctors office. They are to be worn in bed. You may remove them for sex, but should put them back on as soon as possible. They are not to be rolled up at the knees to be shorter, not are the sleeves to be rolled up. Clothing should be modest enough to cover the garments up completely. They are to be worn against the skin . . . that's right ladies, bras go over these babies! It's not all bad though, you do save a lot not shopping at Victoria's secret . . . because would you really put one of those sexy numbers over that? If you doubt my understanding of this, here is the official church guidelines on the wearing and care of the garments.
The protections is a little fuzzier. There are some mormons who will swear up and down that the garments give an actual physical protection from physical harm. And you do find those sort of apocryphal "a friend of a friend . . ." type tales about protection from fire, even bullets. But on the whole mormons are taught that the protection is spiritual, not physical. They help you stay modest and chaste. They remind you of god all the time, and that will help you make better choices. As for physical protection . . . well . . . they do prevent chafing.
Here is a 1997 conference talk on the garments, fully charged with all of it's holy glory and power.
Curious about something? Have a question for me, or something to add? stick it in the comments or send your questions to askanexmormon@gmail.com
Do mormons really think they can convert adults to their religion with this door to door stuff?
Question posed by Waterrat in Reddit.
The simple answer is Yes. They think they can because they do!
have you ever bought anything from a door to door sales man? I have. Just last year I bought a lawn care system!
Really, that is what proselyting is--door to door sales . . . with a twist.
They are young and filled with the zeal of righteousness and the spirit of god and they are quite literally on a mission, so when you open your door to their fresh smiling faces all you will feel from them is good will and love and sincerity. Its a really good place to start. I always lean more toward buying when my salesman believes in the product he is selling.
And the Gospel is a hard sell, not a soft sell. They try and have a person committed to baptism after the first lesson. The Commitment Pattern is a big part of that. And like all sales people, they are persistent. give them a tiny opening and they will work to take advantage.
Once they are in the door, they have a plan in hand and go to. New Missionaries are give three months of intensive training at the MTC (Missionary Training Center) in Utah. It could be two now. it used to be three. (I personally didn't go n a mission, I was told it was my job to stay home and get married, but that is a whole other post!) Once in the field, they are paired with an older Missionary so you have the senior one training the junior one as they go. The MTC is also where they learn the language of the country where they will teack if it isn't English. And when they get there they are functional, if not proficient in the language. And they can give the Missionary discussions with ease.
And now to the tools of the trade . . . the Missionary discussions. This is a set of five well organized classes giving to the individual in a discussion style, generally in the investigator's home. By the third discussion they like to have a firm commitment of baptism. though I understand they start seeking a commitment at the first discussion. I was 7 when I took the discussions so they have changed a bit.
While they are teaching you, someone else will be fellowshipping you, making sure you have rides to church and church activities, making sure you feel included, introducing you to everyone, inviting you to dinner and Family Home Evenings, making sure your needs are met--that there is food in your cupboard (Yes, church welfare is a missionary tool too), Petting and praising you for finding the truth and now being in the know. A number of people will do this actually, and it isn't assigned. It happens organically.
and then . . . . . BAM! you're in! and once in, you (ideally) will be so surrounded by the spirit, so busy with classes and callings and activities and daily scripture study and prayer, that you will be easily absorbed into the day to day life of being LDS. Because it is a way of life, it is all to easy, once in, to have it fill so much of your time and focus that you don't even realize you have isolated yourself from your former life.
By the time the missionaries leave your life, after the discussions, you are firmly ensconced in your new life, and the role of keeping you part of the community has been passed on to the membership. And it all started with a knock on the door from a fresh-faced pair of young men in white shirts and ties.
Be sure to look in the comments for more details from people who actually were missionaries!
If you have a question for me send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com or leave it in the comments, or ask me on reddit - MollyNo-Longer.
The simple answer is Yes. They think they can because they do!
have you ever bought anything from a door to door sales man? I have. Just last year I bought a lawn care system!
Really, that is what proselyting is--door to door sales . . . with a twist.
They are young and filled with the zeal of righteousness and the spirit of god and they are quite literally on a mission, so when you open your door to their fresh smiling faces all you will feel from them is good will and love and sincerity. Its a really good place to start. I always lean more toward buying when my salesman believes in the product he is selling.
And the Gospel is a hard sell, not a soft sell. They try and have a person committed to baptism after the first lesson. The Commitment Pattern is a big part of that. And like all sales people, they are persistent. give them a tiny opening and they will work to take advantage.
Once they are in the door, they have a plan in hand and go to. New Missionaries are give three months of intensive training at the MTC (Missionary Training Center) in Utah. It could be two now. it used to be three. (I personally didn't go n a mission, I was told it was my job to stay home and get married, but that is a whole other post!) Once in the field, they are paired with an older Missionary so you have the senior one training the junior one as they go. The MTC is also where they learn the language of the country where they will teack if it isn't English. And when they get there they are functional, if not proficient in the language. And they can give the Missionary discussions with ease.
And now to the tools of the trade . . . the Missionary discussions. This is a set of five well organized classes giving to the individual in a discussion style, generally in the investigator's home. By the third discussion they like to have a firm commitment of baptism. though I understand they start seeking a commitment at the first discussion. I was 7 when I took the discussions so they have changed a bit.
While they are teaching you, someone else will be fellowshipping you, making sure you have rides to church and church activities, making sure you feel included, introducing you to everyone, inviting you to dinner and Family Home Evenings, making sure your needs are met--that there is food in your cupboard (Yes, church welfare is a missionary tool too), Petting and praising you for finding the truth and now being in the know. A number of people will do this actually, and it isn't assigned. It happens organically.
and then . . . . . BAM! you're in! and once in, you (ideally) will be so surrounded by the spirit, so busy with classes and callings and activities and daily scripture study and prayer, that you will be easily absorbed into the day to day life of being LDS. Because it is a way of life, it is all to easy, once in, to have it fill so much of your time and focus that you don't even realize you have isolated yourself from your former life.
By the time the missionaries leave your life, after the discussions, you are firmly ensconced in your new life, and the role of keeping you part of the community has been passed on to the membership. And it all started with a knock on the door from a fresh-faced pair of young men in white shirts and ties.
Be sure to look in the comments for more details from people who actually were missionaries!
If you have a question for me send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com or leave it in the comments, or ask me on reddit - MollyNo-Longer.
Wednesday, May 25, 2011
So who wrote the Book of Mormon?--a historical view from Sapper Daddy
A Big welcome back to Sapper Daddy who writes about the Spaulding-Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon Authorship. I will mention that this--while very plausible--is not what your average mormon will tell you about who wrote the Book of Mormon or how it came to be. Mormons are often woefully ignorant of their history. The versions they are taught are highly cleansed. and now . . . Sapper Daddy!
I mentioned earlier about the Spaulding-Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon authorship. So what it it?
Solomon Spaulding was born in Connecticut in 1761, . He, among other things, was an author. In his various fictional works, he portrayed the Native Americans as lost peoples from the Old World (sound familiar?). One of his works, entitledManuscript Found, circulated among his friends and family. One of the places that Spaulding lived was in Northeastern Ohio in the town of Conneaut. Spaulding moved to Pittsburg, where he attempted to get his work published, but on condition that he pay for the printing and make some revisions to the manuscript. Spaulding never did get enough money to have his work published before his death in 1815. The manuscript described a man named Lehi and his son Nephi and their family's journey to the New World from Jerusalem (again, sound familiar?) and their subsequent split into groups called Nephites and Lamanites. The manuscript, for a time, disappeared from the printer's shop. Spaulding suspected a young man who worked at the shop of having stolen and copied this manuscript. His name was Sidney Rigdon. Yes, the same Sidney Rigdon who was a close associate of Joseph Smith and at times Smith's closest confidant and friend.
Rigdon became the pastor of a Baptist Church in Pittsburg. Rigdon adopted many divergent beliefs from his Baptist faith, adopting many practices of of groups in the area that experimented with things like communitarianism and modern prophecy. One thing to remember is that the context of the time and place was one of extensive religious revival, known as the Second Great Awakening. The area around the Erie Canal where the early events of Mormonism took place was known as the Burned Over District because of all the revivalist preachers and prophets who frequented the area and condemned it to hell repeatedly. As the Erie Canal was one of the largest building projects ever even contemplated in the United States with a rapid influx of workers and new immigrants into a previously area of wilderness, this area was in great upheaval. Many of the workers were rough men, who alarmed many of the established settlers. To cope with these gigantic, rapid changes in society, many residents turned to religion.
Most important for the development of Rigdon's theology was the Baptist reformer Alexander Campbell. Campbell believed that Christians needed to go back to a primitive church structure as he believed existed in the time of the apostles and that there was a great apostacy from the teaching of Christ in modern Christianity. Ridgon's church split with those who followed him merging with a similiar congregation in the area to for what they called the Church of Christ. By 1827, Rigdon had started to write his own version of Spauling's work, mixing it with biblical teachings to make his own scripture. In 1828, Rigdon met Parley P. Pratt and Oliver Cowdery, who connected him with Joseph Smith. With his own book of scripture complete, but needing a way to publish it that removed him from the process, they story of Joseph Smith's conversations with God and angels was perfect. Together with Oliver Cowdery, Rigdon prepared the manuscript for publication with Smith's help. Finding a way to dupe well-to-do farmer Martin Harris with Smith's gift of translation (probably reading scraps of the manuscript placed into a hat). As part of the confidence scheme, Smith gained the trust of Harris and managed to get the book finally published.
This is of course a simplified explanation of a very detailed and very complex theory of where the Book of Mormon came from, but the pieces to seem to fit quite well and it does seem to explain where things came from. I would encourage anyone interested to look at some of the recently published, peer reviewed, computer analysis-based publications that look at the text and attempt to determine who wrote which parts. These publications seem to confirm that it was generally Rigdon, with some parts tied together by Cowdery.
______
If you have a question for me or SD, please send it to Askanexmormon@gmail.com
Also please follow the blog if you want to keep up with all the zany bits of truth I'm dropping on you!
I mentioned earlier about the Spaulding-Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon authorship. So what it it?
Solomon Spaulding was born in Connecticut in 1761, . He, among other things, was an author. In his various fictional works, he portrayed the Native Americans as lost peoples from the Old World (sound familiar?). One of his works, entitledManuscript Found, circulated among his friends and family. One of the places that Spaulding lived was in Northeastern Ohio in the town of Conneaut. Spaulding moved to Pittsburg, where he attempted to get his work published, but on condition that he pay for the printing and make some revisions to the manuscript. Spaulding never did get enough money to have his work published before his death in 1815. The manuscript described a man named Lehi and his son Nephi and their family's journey to the New World from Jerusalem (again, sound familiar?) and their subsequent split into groups called Nephites and Lamanites. The manuscript, for a time, disappeared from the printer's shop. Spaulding suspected a young man who worked at the shop of having stolen and copied this manuscript. His name was Sidney Rigdon. Yes, the same Sidney Rigdon who was a close associate of Joseph Smith and at times Smith's closest confidant and friend.
Rigdon became the pastor of a Baptist Church in Pittsburg. Rigdon adopted many divergent beliefs from his Baptist faith, adopting many practices of of groups in the area that experimented with things like communitarianism and modern prophecy. One thing to remember is that the context of the time and place was one of extensive religious revival, known as the Second Great Awakening. The area around the Erie Canal where the early events of Mormonism took place was known as the Burned Over District because of all the revivalist preachers and prophets who frequented the area and condemned it to hell repeatedly. As the Erie Canal was one of the largest building projects ever even contemplated in the United States with a rapid influx of workers and new immigrants into a previously area of wilderness, this area was in great upheaval. Many of the workers were rough men, who alarmed many of the established settlers. To cope with these gigantic, rapid changes in society, many residents turned to religion.
Most important for the development of Rigdon's theology was the Baptist reformer Alexander Campbell. Campbell believed that Christians needed to go back to a primitive church structure as he believed existed in the time of the apostles and that there was a great apostacy from the teaching of Christ in modern Christianity. Ridgon's church split with those who followed him merging with a similiar congregation in the area to for what they called the Church of Christ. By 1827, Rigdon had started to write his own version of Spauling's work, mixing it with biblical teachings to make his own scripture. In 1828, Rigdon met Parley P. Pratt and Oliver Cowdery, who connected him with Joseph Smith. With his own book of scripture complete, but needing a way to publish it that removed him from the process, they story of Joseph Smith's conversations with God and angels was perfect. Together with Oliver Cowdery, Rigdon prepared the manuscript for publication with Smith's help. Finding a way to dupe well-to-do farmer Martin Harris with Smith's gift of translation (probably reading scraps of the manuscript placed into a hat). As part of the confidence scheme, Smith gained the trust of Harris and managed to get the book finally published.
This is of course a simplified explanation of a very detailed and very complex theory of where the Book of Mormon came from, but the pieces to seem to fit quite well and it does seem to explain where things came from. I would encourage anyone interested to look at some of the recently published, peer reviewed, computer analysis-based publications that look at the text and attempt to determine who wrote which parts. These publications seem to confirm that it was generally Rigdon, with some parts tied together by Cowdery.
______
If you have a question for me or SD, please send it to Askanexmormon@gmail.com
Also please follow the blog if you want to keep up with all the zany bits of truth I'm dropping on you!
Tuesday, May 24, 2011
FAQ #4 So do mormons think they go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell?
This is one of my favorite questions, in large part because the answer is so completely out there. And it starts with a picture.
That is "The Plan of Salvation." It is a fairly simplistic version. If you look you can find far more involved diagrams. But this is the one children are taught from the begining and it is used in adult classes too. The basic spiel is this: We all lived with god before we were born (Pre-Mortal Existance), but god knew that we would need to have bodies in order to grow and progress and, yes, become gods and goddesses too. So he made a plan . . . Earth! he made Adam and Eve, and they, of course, ate the apple. They had to, in fact. It was the only was for them to become self aware enough to have children. And breed they did! But because of the Fall, mankind needed a savior . . . Christ. Jesus came and died and then was resurrected. and because he did we all can. Now, we don't remember the pre-mortal existence, nor the war in heaven, nor Satan and 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven being cast down to earth because at birth there is a "Veil of Forgetfulness" set in place. That is because life is a test of faith.
So. here we are on Earth. With our physical bodies. Now we get to grow, but we have to do certain things on earth . . . with our bodies . . . to reach the highest level of Glory. Not heaven, mind you, "glory." We have to be baptised, get our temple endowments, and be married. And all of that requires a body. When people die, if they have been baptised (by priesthood authority at the age of 8 or older--not just any old baptism) then they go to a kind of waiting room--Spirit paradise--part of the Spirit World. Those who were not baptised go to a kind of spirtual holding cell--spirit prison--also part of the spirit world. The two worlds aren't separate, they mingle. That way the ones in paradise can do missionary work and teach the ones in prison and while they do that, the faithful, still alive on earth, will do the baptisms and temple work for the dead. Every wonder -why- mormons are so phenomenally good at geneology? That's right. They have to baptise all those prisoners.
Once all the prisoners are baptised they are ready for the next stage--Ressurection. This is the reuniting of the spirit with a perfected and immortal body. You will still be you, only hotter, thinner, more hair, whiter teeth, all imperfections gone. Ressurection is a free gift. It is the product of Christ's death and ressurection. Everyone is ressurected. The good, the bad and the ugly. No exceptions.
Judgement is the part where who and what you were in life matters. it is what determines your glory. you will be judged by Jesus and all the apostles . . . I always was glad Judas would be among the judges . . . and we will be judged on our works.
after Judgement we all go to one of four kingdoms of glory:
Celestial--the highest, you live with god, and you have your family forever. This is the only group that will become gods and goddesses and go on to create worlds and spirit children of their own. You have to be married, and sealed in the temple to be here. (and just like that we are back to polygamy!) This is where the faithful and repentant go. Any who have been baptised, either in person or by proxy in the temple. By the way, the dead who are baptised get to choose whether or not they accept the work.
Terrestrial--you live with Jesus. It's still pretty awesome, but no god the father, no eternal families, no progression, no worlds and no spirit children. This is for decent people who chose not to accept baptism.
Telestial--you live with the holy ghost. This is where the bad people go. it's . . . . well . . . it's not like any other hell you have heard of. often Joseph Smith is credited with saying something to the effect of, if people could see the telestial kingdom, they would be killing themselves to get it. Nice that, really. this is where suicides would go. No progression. but you live forever safe and happy. you never see god, or Jesus and that is the deepest grief.
Then there is "Outer Darkness" or the kingdom of no glory. This is hell. and it is really really hard to get in. you have to have "known the truth" and then denied it. This is more than a loss of faith. It means you knew, empirically, unquestionably, and still turned away. so . . . . um . . . . YOU won't be going here . . just in case you were worried.
And that is the mormon heaven in as close to a nutshell as you can get it. Here is a link to a lesson manual page about the kingdoms to give you a more formal snapshot than I did.
Do you have a question about mormons, or mormonism? send it on to me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
That is "The Plan of Salvation." It is a fairly simplistic version. If you look you can find far more involved diagrams. But this is the one children are taught from the begining and it is used in adult classes too. The basic spiel is this: We all lived with god before we were born (Pre-Mortal Existance), but god knew that we would need to have bodies in order to grow and progress and, yes, become gods and goddesses too. So he made a plan . . . Earth! he made Adam and Eve, and they, of course, ate the apple. They had to, in fact. It was the only was for them to become self aware enough to have children. And breed they did! But because of the Fall, mankind needed a savior . . . Christ. Jesus came and died and then was resurrected. and because he did we all can. Now, we don't remember the pre-mortal existence, nor the war in heaven, nor Satan and 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven being cast down to earth because at birth there is a "Veil of Forgetfulness" set in place. That is because life is a test of faith.
So. here we are on Earth. With our physical bodies. Now we get to grow, but we have to do certain things on earth . . . with our bodies . . . to reach the highest level of Glory. Not heaven, mind you, "glory." We have to be baptised, get our temple endowments, and be married. And all of that requires a body. When people die, if they have been baptised (by priesthood authority at the age of 8 or older--not just any old baptism) then they go to a kind of waiting room--Spirit paradise--part of the Spirit World. Those who were not baptised go to a kind of spirtual holding cell--spirit prison--also part of the spirit world. The two worlds aren't separate, they mingle. That way the ones in paradise can do missionary work and teach the ones in prison and while they do that, the faithful, still alive on earth, will do the baptisms and temple work for the dead. Every wonder -why- mormons are so phenomenally good at geneology? That's right. They have to baptise all those prisoners.
Once all the prisoners are baptised they are ready for the next stage--Ressurection. This is the reuniting of the spirit with a perfected and immortal body. You will still be you, only hotter, thinner, more hair, whiter teeth, all imperfections gone. Ressurection is a free gift. It is the product of Christ's death and ressurection. Everyone is ressurected. The good, the bad and the ugly. No exceptions.
Judgement is the part where who and what you were in life matters. it is what determines your glory. you will be judged by Jesus and all the apostles . . . I always was glad Judas would be among the judges . . . and we will be judged on our works.
after Judgement we all go to one of four kingdoms of glory:
Celestial--the highest, you live with god, and you have your family forever. This is the only group that will become gods and goddesses and go on to create worlds and spirit children of their own. You have to be married, and sealed in the temple to be here. (and just like that we are back to polygamy!) This is where the faithful and repentant go. Any who have been baptised, either in person or by proxy in the temple. By the way, the dead who are baptised get to choose whether or not they accept the work.
Terrestrial--you live with Jesus. It's still pretty awesome, but no god the father, no eternal families, no progression, no worlds and no spirit children. This is for decent people who chose not to accept baptism.
Telestial--you live with the holy ghost. This is where the bad people go. it's . . . . well . . . it's not like any other hell you have heard of. often Joseph Smith is credited with saying something to the effect of, if people could see the telestial kingdom, they would be killing themselves to get it. Nice that, really. this is where suicides would go. No progression. but you live forever safe and happy. you never see god, or Jesus and that is the deepest grief.
Then there is "Outer Darkness" or the kingdom of no glory. This is hell. and it is really really hard to get in. you have to have "known the truth" and then denied it. This is more than a loss of faith. It means you knew, empirically, unquestionably, and still turned away. so . . . . um . . . . YOU won't be going here . . just in case you were worried.
And that is the mormon heaven in as close to a nutshell as you can get it. Here is a link to a lesson manual page about the kingdoms to give you a more formal snapshot than I did.
Do you have a question about mormons, or mormonism? send it on to me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Monday, May 23, 2011
Do mormons make couples consummate their new marriages inside the temples?
Are temple marriages consummated in the temple? This news story
about the flds eldorado temple says they do.
http://www.religionnewsblog.
If they are not consummated in the LDS church currently, is there
any evidence that ever was practiced in the early church?
Dave U. Random
Thank you for your question Mr. Random, and first let me say that article is more than a little disturbing. I can't speak for the FLDS (Fundamental Latter-Day Saints, I think) church. It is as foreign to me as it is to most people. But in the LDS church proper, I can say with surety that, as practiced today, no, LDS marriages are not consummated in the temples.
The temple ceremonies place a major emphasis on chastity and modesty, as does the church in general. It's stiflingly modest and chaste in fact. On my wedding day the only time my husband and I touched at all in the temple was when her took my hand over the alter so we could agree to the vows. It was . . . pardon the pun . . . very anti-climactic. The church is extremely sexually repressive. I think a little kink in the temple might spice it up! but no. Sex is only acceptable between a man and a woman who are married and even then it is intended to be private and sacred and procreative, a holy union.
the second part of your question--did this ever happen--made me do a little digging. I doubted it, but I did check to see if i could find anything on it. I wondered if maybe there was the tinyest chance I had missed that in the history. but no.
While the temple ceremony has changed, it hasn't changed quite that much. But when it has changed, the changes have been very Orwellian. The change is made--for example something is removed--and then it is simple never discussed and in no time it is like what ever was removed was never there to begin with.
When I went through the temple some 13 years ago, my friend told me, "There used to be a part where it told you the consequences of breaking your vows." Now it's just a vague warning of dreadful things that will take place if you don't live up to every vow made in the temple.
I googled recently and found out what he meant by telling you the consequences.
This is a fairly accurate transcript of what is said in the temple. Though some of it, like the Blood Oaths, are no longer part of the ceremony. And this page is a pretty good description of some of the things that were removed.
I bring up these other issues because it shows the changes that have been made in the temple ceremonies. As for the consummation, I think there would still be traces and hints, even in the Orwellian and cleansed history of the church.
*****
If you have a question about mormons or mormonism, please send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
about the flds eldorado temple says they do.
http://www.religionnewsblog.
If they are not consummated in the LDS church currently, is there
any evidence that ever was practiced in the early church?
Dave U. Random
Thank you for your question Mr. Random, and first let me say that article is more than a little disturbing. I can't speak for the FLDS (Fundamental Latter-Day Saints, I think) church. It is as foreign to me as it is to most people. But in the LDS church proper, I can say with surety that, as practiced today, no, LDS marriages are not consummated in the temples.
The temple ceremonies place a major emphasis on chastity and modesty, as does the church in general. It's stiflingly modest and chaste in fact. On my wedding day the only time my husband and I touched at all in the temple was when her took my hand over the alter so we could agree to the vows. It was . . . pardon the pun . . . very anti-climactic. The church is extremely sexually repressive. I think a little kink in the temple might spice it up! but no. Sex is only acceptable between a man and a woman who are married and even then it is intended to be private and sacred and procreative, a holy union.
the second part of your question--did this ever happen--made me do a little digging. I doubted it, but I did check to see if i could find anything on it. I wondered if maybe there was the tinyest chance I had missed that in the history. but no.
While the temple ceremony has changed, it hasn't changed quite that much. But when it has changed, the changes have been very Orwellian. The change is made--for example something is removed--and then it is simple never discussed and in no time it is like what ever was removed was never there to begin with.
When I went through the temple some 13 years ago, my friend told me, "There used to be a part where it told you the consequences of breaking your vows." Now it's just a vague warning of dreadful things that will take place if you don't live up to every vow made in the temple.
I googled recently and found out what he meant by telling you the consequences.
This is a fairly accurate transcript of what is said in the temple. Though some of it, like the Blood Oaths, are no longer part of the ceremony. And this page is a pretty good description of some of the things that were removed.
I bring up these other issues because it shows the changes that have been made in the temple ceremonies. As for the consummation, I think there would still be traces and hints, even in the Orwellian and cleansed history of the church.
*****
If you have a question about mormons or mormonism, please send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Truth revealed or something like that . . .
In my last post I mentioned a lecture and have since gotten the links to it. It illuminate in a doctrinal way, the mormon ideas on the last days and the book of revelation. Now I haven't yet watched it all, but I'm posting the link here anyway, and as I do watch I'll post some of my thoughts.
I wish I had the stamina to go through it all at once, but I just can't swallow all that doctrine as easily as I once did.
"The Key to Understanding the Book of Revelation"
Watch with me and share your thoughts in the comments if you like.
And if you have a question about mormonism, or about the mormons in your life, send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
I wish I had the stamina to go through it all at once, but I just can't swallow all that doctrine as easily as I once did.
"The Key to Understanding the Book of Revelation"
Watch with me and share your thoughts in the comments if you like.
And if you have a question about mormonism, or about the mormons in your life, send it my way at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Sunday, May 22, 2011
OMG! I wasn't raptured!
My friend suggested in light of all the not rapturing that happened, that I do a post on the mormon concept of rapture, and the book of revelations.
First off, not a single mormon was worried about the end of the world yesterday. They cling to Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." So while no one knows when it will happen, you can be pretty damn sure it won't happen when someone pinpoints a time and date. They don't call it the rapture, they call it the Second Coming. When Christ will come in power and glory and rule on the earth for a thousand years.
Before that happens, they believe things will get bad. Really really bad. Wars and Rumors of wars, Earthquakes in diverse places, floods famine. It will not be pretty.
For myself, I was afraid of the end of days. I held onto the promises of the prophets that those who were prepared and righteous would be ok. I had my food storage--several cases of wheat and rice and beans, potatoes, sugar, salt, flour, dried milk and so on-- and my water storage ready. I made sure I had a current temple recommend I'm fuzzy on the details, because they really did scare me at the time, but the idea was that when Christ returned the saints would gather again in the New Jerusalem which would be established in Missouri. I always had the impression we would be pushing handcarts there and I felt very sorry for all the mormons in European countries, because the waters would not be safe. Those temple recommends were very important. They would be the entry pass into the Zion, the New Jerusalem.
I have a friend who has offered to send me a copy of a very good lecture on the LDS conception of the Book of Revelation. When it comes I'll post a review and a link. I'll check in with a few other Ex-mormon friends who were maybe not as scared of the second coming way back when they were devout.
if you have a question you'd like to ask an ex-mormon please email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
First off, not a single mormon was worried about the end of the world yesterday. They cling to Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." So while no one knows when it will happen, you can be pretty damn sure it won't happen when someone pinpoints a time and date. They don't call it the rapture, they call it the Second Coming. When Christ will come in power and glory and rule on the earth for a thousand years.
Before that happens, they believe things will get bad. Really really bad. Wars and Rumors of wars, Earthquakes in diverse places, floods famine. It will not be pretty.
For myself, I was afraid of the end of days. I held onto the promises of the prophets that those who were prepared and righteous would be ok. I had my food storage--several cases of wheat and rice and beans, potatoes, sugar, salt, flour, dried milk and so on-- and my water storage ready. I made sure I had a current temple recommend I'm fuzzy on the details, because they really did scare me at the time, but the idea was that when Christ returned the saints would gather again in the New Jerusalem which would be established in Missouri. I always had the impression we would be pushing handcarts there and I felt very sorry for all the mormons in European countries, because the waters would not be safe. Those temple recommends were very important. They would be the entry pass into the Zion, the New Jerusalem.
I have a friend who has offered to send me a copy of a very good lecture on the LDS conception of the Book of Revelation. When it comes I'll post a review and a link. I'll check in with a few other Ex-mormon friends who were maybe not as scared of the second coming way back when they were devout.
if you have a question you'd like to ask an ex-mormon please email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Miss Molly, does the mormon church check people's emails?
Johnny writes:
"Recently a family member that had a active life as a baptist. Attended a Christian (baptist ) school her entire life til she graduated. (With excellent grades ) .. Has gone to a christian university in Washington State... Now she"s failed all her courses and obsessed with the book of Mormon. Constantly reading it. All her friends are Mormon. All this happened in one year. When she was home for Christmas last year. She wouldn't even go to same church she'd attended all her life.. Only a Mormon church she'll attend now.,
The question I have is: Do the Mormons go as far as checking peoples email? I've tried to contact her via Email and I very rarely get a reply.. And the replies I do get... Seem like some generic answer for concerned family members.
It's not the type of things she'd say..
Would this be there attempt at keeping her un active in other religions?? "
There are a few factors at play here, Johnny and I'll do my best to shed a little light on them for you. The church doesn't monitor or check her emails, or make her write her generic answers. But only because they don't have to. the changes you are seeing in her, the withdrawal, the isolation, are functions of the church but in a far subtler and more insidious way than if they gave her a script to send to her family and friends.
The line she is being fed is this: "Be in the world, but not of the world." on the inside of the church that means to live so that you keep yourself "clean and unspotted". In practice it means picking everything that enters your life, from food and drink and clothes to music and friends very carefully and in accordance with the teachings of the church. It sounds to me like she has been baptized, which would explain why she will only attend a mormon church now. And what she has been taught there is that while all churches have some good in them, the LDS church is the only "true and living" church. The church doesn't need to keep her from being active in other religions, because from the inside there is only "mormon" and "should be mormon".
So, no. they do not check her e-mail. And they don't stop her from responding or replying, nor do they give her a script that she must use. But you are seeing the impact of the teachings above. She can't go to her church where she was raised because, now, to her, it is lesser. It isn't "the fullness of the gospel", and in truth the two faiths are very different. The generic responses are likely because in learning a whole new set of beliefs, including a sort of language of it's own, with it's own catch phrases. it is a very very isolating church, but from the inside it doesn't seem isolating. Because you are kept busy busy busy and not just on sundays. But even with all the activity and the socialization within the church, there is no closeness. And there is less closeness with those outside the church, because they just don't understand, and how can they? Those poor souls do not have "the fullness of the gospel . . . . yet."
I can't tell you how to fix it. I can tell you she won't see it. not even if you confront her with it.
Thank you Johnny for asking and I hope I helped a little.
* * *
If you have a question about mormons, or mormonism, please feel free to send it my way, askanexmormon@gmail.com
"Recently a family member that had a active life as a baptist. Attended a Christian (baptist ) school her entire life til she graduated. (With excellent grades ) .. Has gone to a christian university in Washington State... Now she"s failed all her courses and obsessed with the book of Mormon. Constantly reading it. All her friends are Mormon. All this happened in one year. When she was home for Christmas last year. She wouldn't even go to same church she'd attended all her life.. Only a Mormon church she'll attend now.,
The question I have is: Do the Mormons go as far as checking peoples email? I've tried to contact her via Email and I very rarely get a reply.. And the replies I do get... Seem like some generic answer for concerned family members.
It's not the type of things she'd say..
Would this be there attempt at keeping her un active in other religions?? "
There are a few factors at play here, Johnny and I'll do my best to shed a little light on them for you. The church doesn't monitor or check her emails, or make her write her generic answers. But only because they don't have to. the changes you are seeing in her, the withdrawal, the isolation, are functions of the church but in a far subtler and more insidious way than if they gave her a script to send to her family and friends.
The line she is being fed is this: "Be in the world, but not of the world." on the inside of the church that means to live so that you keep yourself "clean and unspotted". In practice it means picking everything that enters your life, from food and drink and clothes to music and friends very carefully and in accordance with the teachings of the church. It sounds to me like she has been baptized, which would explain why she will only attend a mormon church now. And what she has been taught there is that while all churches have some good in them, the LDS church is the only "true and living" church. The church doesn't need to keep her from being active in other religions, because from the inside there is only "mormon" and "should be mormon".
So, no. they do not check her e-mail. And they don't stop her from responding or replying, nor do they give her a script that she must use. But you are seeing the impact of the teachings above. She can't go to her church where she was raised because, now, to her, it is lesser. It isn't "the fullness of the gospel", and in truth the two faiths are very different. The generic responses are likely because in learning a whole new set of beliefs, including a sort of language of it's own, with it's own catch phrases. it is a very very isolating church, but from the inside it doesn't seem isolating. Because you are kept busy busy busy and not just on sundays. But even with all the activity and the socialization within the church, there is no closeness. And there is less closeness with those outside the church, because they just don't understand, and how can they? Those poor souls do not have "the fullness of the gospel . . . . yet."
I can't tell you how to fix it. I can tell you she won't see it. not even if you confront her with it.
Thank you Johnny for asking and I hope I helped a little.
* * *
If you have a question about mormons, or mormonism, please feel free to send it my way, askanexmormon@gmail.com
Saturday, May 21, 2011
FAQ #3 What's this I hear about the mormon Bible? --with Guest Ex-mormon Sapper Daddy!
Sapper Daddy--Father, ex-mormon, historian and military man has offered to lend his expertise to the Ask an Ex Mormon efforts! With a MA in History and a focus in LDS Church history, he will bring in the facts! be sure to make a lot of comments and if you have questions for him feel free to send them to askanexmormon@gmail.com and pick his brains! Thanks for this SD!
The Book of Mormon traces the descendants of the first colonists from the Middle East, the family of a prophet named Lehi. His posterity split into two groups, the Nephites-followers of his son Nephite and the Lamanites-who followed his other son Laman. The Nephites were faithful people who lived Jewish customs and lived the Law of Moses. The Lamanites, according to the Book of Mormon were less faithful and were cursed by god with a "skin of blackness" and became the ancestors of the American Indians (which explains why Native Americans are not white). The account describes many wars and finally climaxes with a visit of the resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion in Jerusalem. After Jesus' visit, the society eventually fought wars that culminated in the destruction of the Nephite civilization.
Later Mormon leaders have repeatedly stressed that the truth of Joseph Smith rests solely on the veracity of the Book of Mormon. As "the most true book ever published," the Book of Mormon's claims must be fully true and should easily be verified by archaeological evidence, right? Well, unfortunately, wrong. The dirty secret that Mormons won't ever fully admit is that no good evidence supporting claims as made in the Book of Mormon have been found to date. Of course, they rationalize this by emphasizing the to date part of this. BYU has a large archeological department with a big budget dedicated to proving that Book of Mormon claims are true. So far, nothing that's solid evidence exists, otherwise the Mormons would have shouted it from the rooftops.
One of the biggest problems with the Book of Mormon is geography. Where did this all happen? Unlike the Bible where the places can be pinpointed, Very few of these exist for the Book of Mormon. Aside from places described in the first part of the book, before the colonists got to the Americas. Jerusalem, we can pinpoint, as well as the Arabian Peninsula; however, the route as described to their departure point (which some Mormon archaeologists claim to have found, but other than a spot that sort of looks as described there is no other concrete evidence to support his claim), the record goes silent. The Book of Mormon does not describe in any detail that we can match to the present day lay of the land. Sure cities are described, a narrow neck of land, etc, but where exactly are these places? Are they in Mesoamerica, or does the book encompass the entire North and South American continents? Were the Nephites the Maya, and if so, why does the height of their civilization not correspond to the timeline of the Book of Mormon? Also, what happened to the iron implements like swords, horses, pigs, Reformed Egyptian writing, and many other issues.
Also, as exposed on South Park, what happened to the 116 pages of text that Martin Harris lost? Why could they not have just been retranslated? Oh that's right, the rocks in Joseph Smith's hat didn't come up with the same translation, but with a similar story as well as an explanation that God knew what was going to happen.
This does not even scratch the surface of the issues with the text itself, but just suffice it to say that if the translation was perfect, how come we are now on the 10th edition to the text? The modern tenth edition is radically different than Joseph Smith's first edition. Why?
Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation that includes all present evidence is usually the correct one. So which is simpler, that God did not see fit to leave enough evidence to let us identify without doubt where this happened and that he hid archaeological evidence that would prove conclusive, or that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up? My next post will describe how this probably happened, as near as we can piece together."
"The Book of Mormon purports to be a translation by Joseph Smith, Mormonism's founder, of ancient engraved plates made of gold that he found buried in a hill in upstate New York. By his account, he was directed to these plates by an angel named Moroni, one of the compilers of the record when he was a mortal. By his account (something which changed in dramatic details over the years) he proceeded to translate these plates into English. The plates told a story of the inhabitants of the Americas, transplants from Jerusalem just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.Smith would dictate his translation to various scribes, first Martin Harris, a man Smith befriended in the hopes of securing financial backing to have his translation work published. After an incident where Harris lost the first 116 pages of the translation, Smith replaced him with Oliver Cowdery. Eventually, Smith completed the translation and published the book.
The Book of Mormon traces the descendants of the first colonists from the Middle East, the family of a prophet named Lehi. His posterity split into two groups, the Nephites-followers of his son Nephite and the Lamanites-who followed his other son Laman. The Nephites were faithful people who lived Jewish customs and lived the Law of Moses. The Lamanites, according to the Book of Mormon were less faithful and were cursed by god with a "skin of blackness" and became the ancestors of the American Indians (which explains why Native Americans are not white). The account describes many wars and finally climaxes with a visit of the resurrected Jesus after his crucifixion in Jerusalem. After Jesus' visit, the society eventually fought wars that culminated in the destruction of the Nephite civilization.
Later Mormon leaders have repeatedly stressed that the truth of Joseph Smith rests solely on the veracity of the Book of Mormon. As "the most true book ever published," the Book of Mormon's claims must be fully true and should easily be verified by archaeological evidence, right? Well, unfortunately, wrong. The dirty secret that Mormons won't ever fully admit is that no good evidence supporting claims as made in the Book of Mormon have been found to date. Of course, they rationalize this by emphasizing the to date part of this. BYU has a large archeological department with a big budget dedicated to proving that Book of Mormon claims are true. So far, nothing that's solid evidence exists, otherwise the Mormons would have shouted it from the rooftops.
One of the biggest problems with the Book of Mormon is geography. Where did this all happen? Unlike the Bible where the places can be pinpointed, Very few of these exist for the Book of Mormon. Aside from places described in the first part of the book, before the colonists got to the Americas. Jerusalem, we can pinpoint, as well as the Arabian Peninsula; however, the route as described to their departure point (which some Mormon archaeologists claim to have found, but other than a spot that sort of looks as described there is no other concrete evidence to support his claim), the record goes silent. The Book of Mormon does not describe in any detail that we can match to the present day lay of the land. Sure cities are described, a narrow neck of land, etc, but where exactly are these places? Are they in Mesoamerica, or does the book encompass the entire North and South American continents? Were the Nephites the Maya, and if so, why does the height of their civilization not correspond to the timeline of the Book of Mormon? Also, what happened to the iron implements like swords, horses, pigs, Reformed Egyptian writing, and many other issues.
Also, as exposed on South Park, what happened to the 116 pages of text that Martin Harris lost? Why could they not have just been retranslated? Oh that's right, the rocks in Joseph Smith's hat didn't come up with the same translation, but with a similar story as well as an explanation that God knew what was going to happen.
This does not even scratch the surface of the issues with the text itself, but just suffice it to say that if the translation was perfect, how come we are now on the 10th edition to the text? The modern tenth edition is radically different than Joseph Smith's first edition. Why?
Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation that includes all present evidence is usually the correct one. So which is simpler, that God did not see fit to leave enough evidence to let us identify without doubt where this happened and that he hid archaeological evidence that would prove conclusive, or that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up? My next post will describe how this probably happened, as near as we can piece together."
A side note from Molly: I was always taught to remind people that mormons also used the King James Version of the Bible, and they do. But the emphasis is very heavily on the Book of Mormon. It is considered to be more prefect within the church and though it is never said that the Bible is the lesser work, it is sort of implied.
Friday, May 20, 2011
FAQ #2 So . . . Are they? or aren't they? Christian, that is.
YES! and also NO!
This is a really common question and understandable. But hard to answer.
Mormons think they are Christian. But they are also under the impression that the only thing required to be Christian is a belief in Christ. So if you ask a Mormon they will say "Oh Yes!" and point out that Christ is even in the name of the church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But I have learned there is more to Christianity than that belief in Christ, and part of that is a cohesion with other Christians. And in that sense, no, mormons are not Christian. They are, in fact, actively discouraged from being a part of or learning about mainstream Christian religions. I didn't realize till I had been out for a while how ingrained that conditioning is in the Church. They do not even share religious music with other Christian faiths. Even the childrens songs are unique to the LDS church, and the children are not taught the same songs as protestants or Catholics or any other brand of Christianity.
Even now, having found my own beliefs are atheistic, I have a hard time with protestant hymns. my LDS conditioning kicks in and I have to squash it.
This is an odd dualism I have discovered since leaving. The way things look when you are on the inside of the church is very different from the way they look from the outside. and the Church often open teaches and claims one thing, while doing just the opposite.
One friend, a Theist in a faith-based religion was telling me how mormons are not Christians--after I had left-- and I agreed and said in fairness, many Christians weren't really Christians either. He agreed there. First time we had agreed on anything religious in twenty years!
Do you have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
This is a really common question and understandable. But hard to answer.
Mormons think they are Christian. But they are also under the impression that the only thing required to be Christian is a belief in Christ. So if you ask a Mormon they will say "Oh Yes!" and point out that Christ is even in the name of the church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But I have learned there is more to Christianity than that belief in Christ, and part of that is a cohesion with other Christians. And in that sense, no, mormons are not Christian. They are, in fact, actively discouraged from being a part of or learning about mainstream Christian religions. I didn't realize till I had been out for a while how ingrained that conditioning is in the Church. They do not even share religious music with other Christian faiths. Even the childrens songs are unique to the LDS church, and the children are not taught the same songs as protestants or Catholics or any other brand of Christianity.
Even now, having found my own beliefs are atheistic, I have a hard time with protestant hymns. my LDS conditioning kicks in and I have to squash it.
This is an odd dualism I have discovered since leaving. The way things look when you are on the inside of the church is very different from the way they look from the outside. and the Church often open teaches and claims one thing, while doing just the opposite.
One friend, a Theist in a faith-based religion was telling me how mormons are not Christians--after I had left-- and I agreed and said in fairness, many Christians weren't really Christians either. He agreed there. First time we had agreed on anything religious in twenty years!
Do you have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
FAQ #1 Yep. The one about multiple wives.
Miss Molly? Don't mormons have more than one wife? What number wife are you?
I can only speak for the mainstream LDS church. But like catholicism, there are "protestant"-esque off shoots of the mormon church and if or how they practice polygamy I can't say. The Big Love folks would not be considered mainstream LDS.
Today in mainstream mormons, polygamy is not in practice, though it was at the inception of the church. and while not in practice is still considered a righteous and good practice and something that will exist in the eternities.
One thing you should know about the LDS church is there is a disparity between what is said and how things actually are. Within the church is a common understanding that there will be plural marriage in the afterlife, but most mormons are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of actually practicing it. It's one thing to know it will happen in the very distant eternity, and another entirely to think of sharing your husband in a very real and physical sense. Men and women alike, most don't like the idea and often say things like 'well, I wouldn't be righteous enough to have more than one wife any way', or 'Oh I'm glad I don't live in that time.'
Within the church it is claimed that the reason for polygamy is that there are more righteous women than men, and since marriage is required to reach the highest levels in heaven, men have to take more than one wife to let all those good women in! (Don't ask me for sense, I can only offer what is taught. I'm merely a humble ex-mormon, not a miracle worker.) It is also claimed that the reason for the practice in the first place was all the widows and orphans left behind when the early mormon pioneers migrated across the US to Utah. Someone had to take care of all them women!
Myself, I was just one of one.
Interestingly though--men can have more than one temple marriage if the first wife has died. He can marry again in the temple, and the first wife would also still be sealed to him and tada! Polygamy!
Have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
I can only speak for the mainstream LDS church. But like catholicism, there are "protestant"-esque off shoots of the mormon church and if or how they practice polygamy I can't say. The Big Love folks would not be considered mainstream LDS.
Today in mainstream mormons, polygamy is not in practice, though it was at the inception of the church. and while not in practice is still considered a righteous and good practice and something that will exist in the eternities.
One thing you should know about the LDS church is there is a disparity between what is said and how things actually are. Within the church is a common understanding that there will be plural marriage in the afterlife, but most mormons are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of actually practicing it. It's one thing to know it will happen in the very distant eternity, and another entirely to think of sharing your husband in a very real and physical sense. Men and women alike, most don't like the idea and often say things like 'well, I wouldn't be righteous enough to have more than one wife any way', or 'Oh I'm glad I don't live in that time.'
Within the church it is claimed that the reason for polygamy is that there are more righteous women than men, and since marriage is required to reach the highest levels in heaven, men have to take more than one wife to let all those good women in! (Don't ask me for sense, I can only offer what is taught. I'm merely a humble ex-mormon, not a miracle worker.) It is also claimed that the reason for the practice in the first place was all the widows and orphans left behind when the early mormon pioneers migrated across the US to Utah. Someone had to take care of all them women!
Myself, I was just one of one.
Interestingly though--men can have more than one temple marriage if the first wife has died. He can marry again in the temple, and the first wife would also still be sealed to him and tada! Polygamy!
Have a question for me? Email me at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Thursday, May 19, 2011
Who, What, How, Why.
Who can ask you questions Miss Molly? Only non-mormons? What if I went to a service once? Can I sill ask?
Anyone. In or out of the church. That's right. Sometimes even Mormon's might have questions about their own religion.
What can I ask you Miss Molly? Are there any subjects off limits?
Anything. I may or may not answer. I'm not really here to debate so much as share. Have a question about what the church teaches? Have a mormon neighbor you can't quite understand? Hear a rumor you want to understand or explore? What is the deal with the magic undies? Ask. It cant hurt!
How do I ask my very important question Miss Molly?
Well I'm glad you asked! drop me an email at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Why are you opening yourself to us like this Miss Molly? Are you trying to convert us? or worse! deconvert us?
No, not looking to convert or deconvert. I just have a few decades of experience on the inside and I know how the way things look from the inside is a lot different then the way they look on the outside. And not everyone who is curious about the inside has an ex-mormon of their own to ask about these things. Plus, I'm just giving that way.
Anyone. In or out of the church. That's right. Sometimes even Mormon's might have questions about their own religion.
What can I ask you Miss Molly? Are there any subjects off limits?
Anything. I may or may not answer. I'm not really here to debate so much as share. Have a question about what the church teaches? Have a mormon neighbor you can't quite understand? Hear a rumor you want to understand or explore? What is the deal with the magic undies? Ask. It cant hurt!
How do I ask my very important question Miss Molly?
Well I'm glad you asked! drop me an email at askanexmormon@gmail.com
Why are you opening yourself to us like this Miss Molly? Are you trying to convert us? or worse! deconvert us?
No, not looking to convert or deconvert. I just have a few decades of experience on the inside and I know how the way things look from the inside is a lot different then the way they look on the outside. And not everyone who is curious about the inside has an ex-mormon of their own to ask about these things. Plus, I'm just giving that way.
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